Far to the north a third central place that encompassed the greater Mesa Verde culture area had risen from the ashes of Chaco, but by the beginning of he 13th century, a series of cold wet winters began to force the inhabitants south. During the mid 1200s, one of these northern communities came further south than all the others and planted itself just upstream from the Victorio Site, building Pinnacle on a defensible uplift. Radiocarbon dates strongly suggest that they arrived while Victorio Site was still occupied. Were they neighbors? What required a defensive position? Was it out of habit developed in their old country or were they not welcome? We are not sure, but like the connections between the Socorro and Mimbres affiliates a century before, there is currently little evidence to interpret the dynamics.